tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post1070452707152879450..comments2023-09-26T00:42:29.508-07:00Comments on Caritas in Veritate: Can the German Bishops do this?Father John Boylehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10581732723849634398noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-6478339643821330392013-03-18T08:37:34.810-07:002013-03-18T08:37:34.810-07:00I am English and Roman Catholic living in Germany....I am English and Roman Catholic living in Germany. I as well as my non German Catholic friends refuse to be registered on a list by the government.<br />I cannot express my disgust enough that they put you on a list and use that list to tax you via the government.<br /><br />On top of this the German Church blackmailing me by threatening defacto excommunication.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-31931902048953604682012-09-27T14:19:11.141-07:002012-09-27T14:19:11.141-07:00Paul: I don't know how authoritative the websi...Paul: I don't know how authoritative the website you link to is - it seems to be a bit frivolous at the end - but it certainly does appear to be an expression of leaving (i.e. defecting from) the Church. And as we are all bound to maintain communion with the Church, it is a serious matter. So, I agree that it amounts to a defection from the Church. And if the people are made aware of the consequences of their actions, as the bishops are certainly doing, then they are making an informed choice.Father John Boylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10581732723849634398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-70252107547213007172012-09-27T13:01:09.193-07:002012-09-27T13:01:09.193-07:00Father, given the actual process for cessation of ...Father, given the actual process for cessation of the religious tax in Germany—<em>see, e.g.</em>, <a href="http://www.german-tax-back.com/church-tax.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.german-tax-back.com/church-tax.html</a>—I think you ought to revise your question as follows:<br /><br />"Is going to <strong>a secular tribunal or competent state official</strong> and <strong>solemnly declaring that you want to leave the church</strong> equivalent to a formal defection from the Catholic Church, or to notoriously and publicly abandoning the faith, and/or does it make you a notorious apostate, heretic or schismatic?"<br /><br />With that revision, it should be plain to see that the situation is at least, on its face, notorious defection, schism, or both.<br /><br />I recognize that an individual who made that declaration may not have really meant it, which would be a great defense against the ecclesiastical consequences but may have pretty serious secular consequences.<br /><br />But I admit that I could be wrong regarding this analysis and welcome your comments.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12230819869791456175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-19086453804129315352012-09-27T11:45:50.461-07:002012-09-27T11:45:50.461-07:00so in effect german Catholics are being held to ra...so in effect german Catholics are being held to ransom by their bishops, you pay X% of your income or be declared an apostate hmmmmm sounds like the mafia to meJust another mad Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10503510474554718305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-4084933909937194312012-09-27T07:13:22.736-07:002012-09-27T07:13:22.736-07:001. I am not crazy about government collecting for ...1. I am not crazy about government collecting for any religious entity. <br /><br />2. I was under the impression that it is part of our obligation to provide tithe to the Church and that to refuse is sin? If so, is it a mortal sin? If it is mortal sin, does that not limit your access to the sacrements, until a bona fide confession?<br /><br />Just asking - all those who purged are in my prayers and I hope all readers<br /><br />“Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi” (What you pray is what you believe is what you live)<br /><br />“Dei Gloriae, Hiberniae Honori” (To the Glory of God and the Honour of Ireland).<br /><br />“Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much. Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes not divine, but demonic.” Pope Benedict XVI<br /><br />“We believe that Social Security legislation, now billed as a great victory for the poor and for the worker, is a great defeat for Christianity. It is an acceptance of the idea of force and compulsion.” Dorothy Day<br /><br />“Progress should mean that we are always changing the world to fit the vision, instead we are always changing the vision.” G. K. Chesterton<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-59873487578393155282012-09-27T05:20:38.737-07:002012-09-27T05:20:38.737-07:00Fr.,
Good article and much to think about, though...Fr.,<br /><br />Good article and much to think about, though it seems necessary to point out that the tax is not added onto the tax bills of Germans but rather is 9% (8% in Bavaria) of whatever the total tax bill is. So If a German pays the Government EUR10,000 then EUR900 (EUR800 in Bavaria) of that is relinquished by the Government and sent to his religious group (if he belongs to a group that receives such funding).<br /><br />I wonder whether this makes any difference to the canonical situation, since one cannot opt-out for financial reasons (since the 9% would simply go into the state coffers)? Francesco Possentinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-13265010593427112472012-09-27T01:04:43.059-07:002012-09-27T01:04:43.059-07:00Dear Father, you will find a link to the original ...Dear Father, you will find a link to the original decree and the pastoral letter to be sent to those affected by it on my blog here: http://scecclesia.com/?p=6625Schützhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-48359967344487755462012-09-26T22:05:30.393-07:002012-09-26T22:05:30.393-07:00Obviously, you were not refused the sacraments whe...Obviously, you were not refused the sacraments when you put less money into the collection. What is being overlooked is the fact that the Bishops were referring to people who are publically declaring their break from the Church. Even Jesus declared that we needed to openly confess that we accepted the Lord in order to have eternal life. If they allow money to come between them and their Lord and his Church then there is a problem here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-82902269297699934762012-09-26T17:45:18.735-07:002012-09-26T17:45:18.735-07:00Matthew: the intention of my post was not to pick ...Matthew: the intention of my post was not to pick on the bishops but to study the possible canonical bases for their action. It could be that it is justified, particularly as the Vatican has approved.Father John Boylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10581732723849634398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-20212685309684921512012-09-26T17:24:16.611-07:002012-09-26T17:24:16.611-07:00Why are we picking on the bishops who seem to fina...Why are we picking on the bishops who seem to finally be growing a spine?? These German "Catholics" are not unlike Judas willing to sell their faith for a few euros. This is shameful behavior and ought to be called out as the bishops are doing. <br />MatthewAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-62528680999802925822012-09-26T14:18:54.282-07:002012-09-26T14:18:54.282-07:00Just another mad Catholic
How much income tax did ...Just another mad Catholic<br />How much income tax did you pay when you were a ‘poor undergraduate’ and then a ‘poor unemployed undergraduate’. If you were poor then I would imagine that you paid no income tax. Therefore, had you lived in Germany, your tax bill towards the Church would have been precisely zero. Whether this tax is something which should exist or not, please remember that it is an extra amount paid by those who pay income tax: the less income tax you pay the less you pay to the Church. Therefore other comments about poor people are really irrelevant.<br />As a retired teacher in the UK, I estimate that my tax contribution, based on the German system would be about £4 a week. I think that it’s only fair that I give more than that. But if I were a husband with a family of four children, on the same income, I might look at it differently.<br /><br />But that's a separate issue than whether or not the Church ought to be financed in this way and what consequences there should or should not be if people stop paying the tax.Highland Cathedralhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07519428794618769856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-85030195043285619172012-09-26T10:47:50.049-07:002012-09-26T10:47:50.049-07:00For most of my four and a half years as a Catholi...For most of my four and a half years as a Catholic I have not been able to contribute as much as I would have liked to the Church, I was a poor undergrad and after that a poor unemployed graduate. <br /><br />Since Febuary I have been gainfully employed and have been able to contribute much more; should I have been refused Communion when I was putting less into the collection basket?Just another mad Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10503510474554718305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-61681628686845084582012-09-26T10:11:33.408-07:002012-09-26T10:11:33.408-07:00In the mean while I wrote a post on my own blog to...In the mean while I wrote a post on my own blog to provide some context and explain the bishops' stance. It's not about denying people who don't pay tax any Sacraments, but people who voluntarily left the church. http://goo.gl/cfBGF <br /><br />The whole debate got sparked by a lawyer trying to be removed from the tax register only but remain Catholic. Today, the Bundesverwaltungsgericht ruled that's not possible. This is a link to that: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jSlD9TmctC-Jm-tR901L0ARw4WLw?docId=CNG.f4d4fec426309741ec996fb87c31f219.1101<br /><br />So this is not something the bishops made up, it's something they are forced to do by German law, which makes this more complicated than you orignally thought it was.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-21424717097992307742012-09-26T08:25:54.816-07:002012-09-26T08:25:54.816-07:00Suppose a parishioner went to his/her pastor and t...Suppose a parishioner went to his/her pastor and told him that he could not contribute money to the parish for any easily imaginable excellent reason (lost job, crushing financial obligations elsewhere, etc.) And the parishioner offered to work around the parish some number of hours per week as contribution. In virtually any parish in the US, such a person/family in this situation would be considered a member in good standing, and I imagine everywhere else in the world, too. (Not to mention they probably would find themselves beneficiaries of the parish's charitable activities.)<br /><br />Inge describes a procedure where the church member goes to the church to remove themselves from the rolls, not to the taxing authority. Given what the bishops have said about people removing themselves from the rolls -- what happens now in Germany in the situation where a parishioner goes to the pastor and asks to be taken off of the tax rolls because he/she cannot afford the financial burden for some serious reason, but then makes him/her-self available to work as a volunteer in church ministries?<br /><br />(Several decades ago my in-laws, who never had much money, had two children in college, and my father-in-law was in somewhat precarious health, and he worked six days per week, about 60 hours/week. My mother-in-law wrote a letter to their pastor explaining that money was very tight, and so they were going to have to stop contributing to the collection. She offered to volunteer in any capacity that she was needed, and also in the past my father-in-law and both kids had volunteered many many hours working the parish bingo fundraiser. She got absolutely no response to the letter, which she took great affront to, and stopped going to church. Whenever money is involved, the opportunities to just completely screw up pastorally are LEGION!)cathyfnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-18397506228781297202012-09-26T08:18:48.007-07:002012-09-26T08:18:48.007-07:00Inge: I think your perspective is interesting and ...Inge: I think your perspective is interesting and I thank you for it.<br /><br />I guess I'm interested in the strictly canonical. Is going to your Church and asking to be removed from the register equivalent to a formal defection from the Catholic Church, or to notoriously and publicly abandoning the faith, and/or does it make you a notorious apostate, heretic or schismatic?<br /><br />Depriving someone of their rights in the Church can only be done under strict conditions. The insight of other canonists will be very interesting. I am particularly looking forward to Dr Edward Peters' observations.Father John Boylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10581732723849634398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-68100450884913251022012-09-26T08:12:38.803-07:002012-09-26T08:12:38.803-07:00In many countries with a Church Tax like this (for...In many countries with a Church Tax like this (for example Belgium) clerics are paid by the state, not the Church. The whole tax system is an example of laïcité. <br /><br />There is no such thing as 'removing yourself from a tax register'. That's not how it works. You are on that register because you are registered as a member of Church X, Y or Z. The only way to get exempt for the tax is to defect from church X, Y or Z. It's really not hard to understand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-79835482645423857722012-09-26T07:50:26.682-07:002012-09-26T07:50:26.682-07:00Your readers await your considered views, Professo...Your readers await your considered views, Professor! Good luck with the Synod prep. And prayers for you and all as you participate in this hugely important event as we launch further into the New Evangelization.Father John Boylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10581732723849634398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-74944658950714185802012-09-26T07:47:12.439-07:002012-09-26T07:47:12.439-07:00I am looking into this, though around prepping for...I am looking into this, though around prepping for the Synod of Bishops. My sense is that some very simple points are wrapped up in some very complicated laws here. People have been good about sending me good data on the process. We'll have to see. Best, edp.Dr. Edward Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07194180416609950473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-28300980883865854272012-09-26T07:34:24.648-07:002012-09-26T07:34:24.648-07:00Thank you for this post. I think that the German b...Thank you for this post. I think that the German bishops have really made a big mistake over this.<br /><br />The only sin these people may have committed is failing to support their pastors financially. But cancelling the Church tax does not mean that they are not putting money anonymously into the collection plate each weekend.<br /><br />By the way, Gem I was under the impression that they don't save money this way because their Church tax is diverted into the funds of another charity (eg the Red Cross) of their choosing.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Veritasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-26620583163018678592012-09-26T07:09:40.013-07:002012-09-26T07:09:40.013-07:00This article is not entirely correct. In order to ...This article is not entirely correct. In order to avoid the tax in Germany, you need to go to the church you belong to and basically ask to be removed from their register. It basically comes to renouncing your faith. So for both the Church and state you will no longer be considered to be a Catholic in this case.<br /><br />As I recall, Sacraments are only for Catholics who are in good standing with the Church. How can you be still in a good standing with the Catholic Church after you leave that church?<br /><br />Being a Dutch Catholic in good standing with the Church, but not paying the Kirchensteuer since I'm not a German citizen, allows me still to receive Communion attending a Mass in Germany.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-39339402480863989482012-09-26T05:17:21.398-07:002012-09-26T05:17:21.398-07:00These bishops are dumber than a mountain of rocks....These bishops are dumber than a mountain of rocks. Where is real free will in this? Where is the right not to have one's personal offerings dictated by a civil 'authority.'<br /><br />Here's your choice: you are poor and maybe lost your job. You have to keep a roof over your head and your family fed. you do want to support the church with what you can and do so when you can. Feed your children and keep a roof over their head? Or keep more of your money by renouncing from the state taxing authority so you can feed the kids. And have the church cut you off. Lovely free will choice. But then the German government is one who takes children from parents if they dare home school. So why is this surprising.gemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6845239886251312993.post-50780806497723168932012-09-25T22:58:41.152-07:002012-09-25T22:58:41.152-07:00There have been more sins committed by priest, Bis...There have been more sins committed by priest, Bishops and cardinals over money than over any other matter. My own view is that even Pope's have failed to teach lest their teaching lose money for the Church!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com